Batumelebi

The German Ambassador to Georgia, Peter Fischer, will soon complete his mission. The ambassador says that during his 40-year diplomatic career, Georgia has differed from other countries in one important way: apart from Georgia, in none of the countries where he worked did he witness a “backslide.”

Batumelebi interviewed Peter Fischer. We spoke with him about the rhetoric of the “Georgian Dream,” German-Georgian relations, the possible suspension of the visa-free regime, and other important issues.

Ambassador Fischer also told us that Germany’s next ambassador to Georgia will be a woman.

• I don’t know if you remember, but we first met in 2023 at the project presentation event. It was, I think, December 2023, and I was with Mzia Amaglobeli. Actually, when we met, we discussed how you liked Georgia and what you had seen. Back then, you told me about visiting the mountainous regions of Adjara, going there with the then-mayor, and having good relations with the officials in Georgia, and everything seemed very positive. And here we are, three years later, and we hear all the attacks against you, sometimes insulting. And it is your last mission — as we understand, you are retiring from the profession. Now, it might not be very easy, but to sum up this last mission, how would you summarize it? And what would you say happened, and when did the situation change?

So, it’s true that I enjoy Georgia, I still do enjoy Georgia. To sum up my mission, well, there was a change. I’ve been here for four years and the first two years, being the German ambassador, Germany being traditionally one of the leading partners and friends of Georgia, I was kind of best friends with everyone, including everyone that is in the Georgian Dream and in the government.

I know almost all of them personally quite well and we got along well. We spoke German with many of them. We looked back on a 30-year very deep and broad partnership and even more than 30 years before, a traditional friendship between the two countries. And Georgia was on the path towards the European Union. That was and still is the main framework of my job here as German ambassador. And this was a very good path and something very important to us. Who joins the EU, who doesn’t join – it is essential to Germany. So we were looking at a bright future together and we were aligned, we were in friendship, in partnership and we were working together on a common goal.

It culminated in the European Union awarding the candidate status to Georgia in December 2023. I was on the stage with the entire government on Freedom Square, European hymn played, everyone was celebrating, everyone was happy.

I remember all the Georgian Dream leaders patted me on the back — “Yes, candidate status, what an important step.”

And then in early 2024, everything turned. We started seeing a hostile rhetoric against the West, against the EU, against Germany, against the representatives of the EU, including myself.

We started seeing laws that are contradictory to European Union legislation — in other words, we started seeing concrete actions which are not compatible with the goal of joining the EU, which are actually objectively contradictory. And we started seeing violations of civil rights, human rights in Georgia… and a general atmosphere of intimidation. So it changed in early 2024.

Basically, the first half of my stay was very productive and on a positive agenda and the second half of my stay was with a quite troubled agenda and the loss of our alignment and a damage to the friendly relations.

• And when we see this attacks and the statements made by the GD officials, they sometimes sound very personal, like as if it was,  just a conflict between Mr. Fischer and Georgia or Mr. Fischer and Papuashvili, really. Regardless the fact that German Foreign Ministry made statements stating that you represent their interest, they still try to frame it that way. What do you think, what kind of strategy it is and whether they are successful with this strategy?

I think it’s unsuccessful. I wonder who actually believes this.

Does anybody really believe the German ambassador has so much influence and is doing a personal agenda here to undermine Georgia? It’s very unbelievable and, of course, it’s completely false and not true.

I’m a professional diplomat. I articulate the position of the government of the Federal Republic of Germany. Among all those attacks, the government of the Federal Republic of Germany has in writing many times stated that I am merely articulating our policy, our position, our opinion, our concerns – our concerns as friends of Georgia.

I guess we’re speaking about a narrative and the Georgian Dream has developed this narrative, which I think is also completely false, it’s invented narrative about a ‘Global War Party’, about a ‘Deep State’, ‘Liberal Fascism’ running this conspiracy against Georgia. And it’s invented, it’s false. I’ve spoken about this many times.

I’ve been working for the German government for 40 years. I never saw the ‘Deep State’. And you know, who is the ‘Deep State’? Can we have a name? Can we have a face? How can this ‘Deep State’ be so influential in the USA, then it moved to the EU, now it’s in UK, it’s moving around? We never see it.

The facts are different. The facts are that the European Union and its member states have been really good friends and partners to Georgia. We are not interfering into internal affairs. We certainly don’t promote violence or anything like that.

The Georgian Dream pushes this narrative and a little old diplomat like me just serves to support the narrative. So they take whatever they find and they say “that’s proof of our narrative, of our conspiracy theory”.

And they even go so far as — as in American English you talk about “throwing someone under the bus”, to make them a victim, – to make the German ambassador to Georgia, to throw them under the bus for their narrative. And I don’t think it’s a very smart policy. I don’t think it’s in the best interest of Georgia to pick on the German ambassador in this way, to slander the German ambassador in this way, because, just to repeat, Germany has been a friend and Germany will continue to be a friend.

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• But this also sends sort of a signal for others – the chilling signal for the other ambassadors to not actually speak up, to not actually make statements or say that “we see this is a violation”, “this is not right”, “this is contradictory to the EU path or your aspirations to join the EU”. So it also seems like trying to achieve that – because  nobody wants to be attacked on the weekly basis like you are. You are super popular, you mentioned it before also, people do know you but also it comes with lots of attacks, right?! What do you think, is this chilling effect on place? Do you see that anybody of your colleagues is taking it as a warning, or what should we expect from the future German ambassador in this context?

I think it is intended to intimidate people, to have this chilling effect. I think diplomats are here to do their job, to be professional, to represent their country. I don’t know how it affects other diplomats.

Let’s put it this way: it’s no fun to see the President, the Prime Minister, the President of the Parliament, all kinds of members of Parliament, all kinds of backbenchers all the time saying “you’re a liar and you’re support violence” and things like that. It’s no fun.

Much worse than the intimidation of diplomats is the intimidation of Georgian citizens that we witness. That’s the first thing.

My successor is going to be a woman and she’s going to be a professional diplomat just like me. And I’m very confident that all the friends of Georgia, all the friends of the European Union in Georgia will support her and be kind and friendly and generous to her as so many Georgians have been to me. It’s really overwhelming – the support that I receive even on the street from strangers every day.

• Now to try to move to the another side of how EU could act on the human right violations that we’ve seen in Georgia and that you mentioned. We kept hearing that it was Hungary which was opposing the sanctions, which was opposing the EU actions – united actions. What do you think with the newest election results and changes in Hungary? Has the EU become more flexible to actually support the sanctions against individuals who are responsible for this gross violations of human rights in Georgia?

Yes, that’s certainly possible. The  EU sanctions require a unanimous decision and Hungary was the leader in vetoing such proposals which were on the table of the European Council. So it’s certainly possible.

In Georgia, many people always say, “Why don’t you do this sanction, that sanction?” – It’s a very extraordinary measure to sanction people in another country for actions taken in another country. We don’t have jurisdiction here. However, in extraordinary circumstances there is what we call a legal base. And we have three legal bases as EU to sanction citizens of other countries.

The first is violation of human rights. The second is support for the Russian war of aggression against Ukraine. And the third is so-called FIMI: Foreign Information Manipulation and Interference. And we have sanctioned people who promote Russian aggressive foreign information manipulation and interference. So those three legal bases exist. And with the Hungarian change of government, the possibility exists that the EU will try to use those three legal bases.

• And there are also talks about the visa-free regime and lifting it. What do you know about it? Because also there are narratives, as you mentioned from GD, as if somebody is promoting of cancelling visa-free for Georgian citizens.

First of all, again, that’s a false narrative. No Georgian has ever said “cancel the visa-free”, right, to me.

Second point: we want Georgians to travel visa-free to Germany and other EU countries. We consider Georgia a friend, a candidate. We like it that Georgian people can come to our countries without a visa for three months as visitors and exercise the friendship and deepen our relations in this way.

But the visa-free also comes with some conditions. I don’t want to go in all the technical details now, but those are known. You can find the agreement on the internet – it says the conditions. If Georgia is in violation of the conditions, then the European Union is required to examine whether the exemption from the requirement to have a visa — that’s what you have, you don’t have visa-free, you are exempted from the requirement based on certain conditions — then we are required to examine whether that can stay or cannot stay.

As things stand, Germany wants Georgia to remain visa-free. I think that’s the really important message. No one is lobbying to take away this possibility from the vast majority of Georgian people that come to our countries for good purposes and to enjoy. We want that.

• Now that we spoke about the sanction possibilities in the EU, let’s move to more concrete, state level, country level sanctions. We saw recently that the UK sanctioned TV Imedi under the Russian sanctions because it ‘through Russian propaganda significantly damaged Georgian democracy and sought to mobilize people against EU integration’; so the the reason were quite well-explained and grounded.
  How realistic, do you think, is the possibility of Germany also following these steps?

So, normally our sanctions implemented against other countries or people, organizations in other countries are EU sanctions. National sanctions are a great, great exception. There’s a reason for that, but I won’t go into it. It’s only interesting for lawyers. Normally it’s EU sanctions. As I said, in the EU we have a legal base called FIMI: Foreign Information Manipulation and Interference. So that could happen.

These TV stations that we’re talking about, to me are not, you know, TV stations that give information. I don’t watch them, but I monitor them. To me they are propaganda channels. They are political fighting machines. They give very little news, actually. It’s always a politicized statement. And there is a great coincidence in terms of content and in terms of timing with Russian narratives: anti-liberal, anti-West, anti-EU, anti-Germany. So, perhaps FIMI will come. I don’t know. That’s up to the 27 member states to decide.

Now, recently Imedi has been sanctioned by the European Parliament for violating the rules covering media inside the European Parliament. Of course, if Imedi goes to the German Parliament and violates German national rules or does something else illegal in Germany, then we will oblige them to follow the rules.

• But not like the UK did. You don’t think that this is going to happen?

That’s very unlikely because of the legal situation where sanctions, which are an economic instrument which interdict economic activity, are usually taken only at the EU level. So that’s something that is not for our national level.

And I should say something else about this whole discussion. Imedi and other TV stations now say, “It’s a sanctioning of free speech,” right?! They say: “If you don’t allow us to do whatever we want, you’re undermining free speech and the free media.” That’s something in English we call it a red herring. It’s like a fake argument.

Free speech is a right of the people, of non-state organizations against the state. We call them freedom rights, freedom of the citizens and of civil society. The government doesn’t have free speech protection. The government says what it wants anyway. And these channels push pro-government propaganda. So for them to say “our free speech is being limited” is just turning the free speech rights on its head and it’s, again, it’s an argument to fool the people.

• To stick with Germany and German politics in connection with Georgia and Georgian Dream, the AfD is often seen as one of Georgian Dream’s allied political forces in Europe and this party has repeatedly supported them in different situations. Imedi and other TV channels also try to frame it as actually Georgian Dream having supporters in Germany, in German politics and Fischer and others being against just for some personal reasons. To counter this narrative or to answer this narrative, what kind of party is it? And actually what does this relationship tell us about Georgian Dream’s foreign policy?

It tells us a lot. So, the Georgian government is making two arguments about the EU. First, “by 2030 we will be best prepared. And until 2028 we don’t want to talk with the EU because they’re blackmailing us, we don’t want this kind of pressure, and we will be best prepared”. That’s a fundamental misunderstanding or, again, a claim aimed to mislead the public. Because to join the EU, you have to adopt the EU legislation. That’s just the way it is. If you don’t like the EU legislation, just abandon the project, please – save everybody a lot of time. That’s a big project, so you have to work continuously, you have to talk to the European Commission all the time about any legislation and make sure it’s aligned, it’s the same as our legislation. And to say that, “we are doing everything right — our building code, our traffic laws, our environmental laws are all going into the direction of the EU” — is pointless because the laws governing democracy and rule of law and freedom of the media are the fundamental areas. So if you don’t get those right, the other more technical areas don’t matter.

So being ready by 2030 is already misleading. Because in the fundamental areas, Georgia is moving away. And who is the referee for that? The European Commission. If you don’t accept the referee, you’re also being unrealistic about joining the EU.

And another argument: “we will be ready by 2030 and by 2030 the EU will be ready for us”. That’s what the Georgian government is saying, “We hope that by then the European Union will change and will become more like us.” And “here the hope is that Hungary and AfD and their allies will help us to get in”. I have, two arguments: First of all, that won’t happen by 2030. Won’t happen. And second of all, even if it did happen, it wouldn’t be the same EU. It would be a different EU without many of the advantages that would be advantages for Georgia if it joined.

Why won’t it happen? I’m a civil servant, I’m politically neutral. But I’m also a citizen and I will give you my educated evaluation, my educated analysis that by 2030 and even beyond there will not be a Chancellor of Germany from the AfD. We have a strong, very super strong majority in the middle of society that does not share the views of AfD, right? And we will be able to form governments without AfD and certainly not with AfD leadership. Hungary — well, it just disappeared as a great ally. Now, so it won’t happen because AfD won’t take the government in Germany and Hungary is disappeared. And you need unanimity to join the EU. We have right-wing populist movements in some European countries, but in some European countries not – all. There’re many countries that will never allow the EU to go in such a direction.

Now, second argument: even if it did happen, what is the AfD’s policy on EU and European enlargement? Let me go into some detail because this really kind of shows an answer when you ask what is behind this policy of saying “AfD is our partner and the most popular party in Germany”. And Imedi, when they quote German politicians, they are always AfD politicians that I don’t even know.

AfD is against enlargement. AfD says “no enlargement.” “No more new members.” So you can’t say AfD will help me to join. AfD says “I don’t want you to join.” What sense does that make? Makes no sense. AfD wants a different Europe. AfD is against the freedom of movement of labour. One of the big advantages for Georgia would be to join the EU, people can go freely to find jobs in the EU. So they’re against that.

The AfD is against the solidarity mechanisms that we have in the EU. They’re against the agricultural policy. Georgia has agriculture, could benefit from support for its agricultural sector. Just like many other European countries where agriculture is in difficult situations, mountainous regions, things like that. AfD is against the structural and cohesion funds that we have for new members that are peripheral regions that have structural challenges. The European Union supports these regions in the far end of Portugal, Greece, Spain, the Eastern countries bordering the outside the EU.

The AfD is against the external shock funds. After COVID, the EU helped many countries that had difficulties to recover economically after COVID, after the financial crisis. We have funds where we provide solidarity for natural catastrophes, which will become more in the times of climate change, by the way. AfD is against it. AfD is for cancelling Erasmus – Thousands of Georgian students have gone to Europe on Erasmus exchange programs.

• Maybe even GD officials, some of them.

Perhaps. And certainly they’ve gone with German scholarships, I happen to know all of them that went. So AfD is against Erasmus. They’re against the Euro. Some AfD members even propose “Dexit”— “Germany should leave the EU”. And some even say “should leave the NATO”. The main thing, the main platform of the AfD is “foreigners out.” They don’t like foreigners. Ans some Georgians have said “they mean us Georgians?” And I say, “Don’t hold your breath.” They think you are foreigners just like they think people from let’s say Nigeria or Syria or Afghanistan are foreigners. “Germany for the Germans” — that’s a big motto of AfD.

They want to stop development aid. We have a giant development portfolio here. According to AfD, “keep the German money in Germany”. They would also give less scholarships. We have a giant scholarship program, German Academic Exchange Program with Germany. AfD would definitely reduce that. And some of your most prominent politicians have been beneficiaries of our scholarships.

AfD is against providing visa liberalization for third countries. I’m not in the AfD, but I’m pretty sure that if you ask them, they would say, “Yes, stop this visa liberalization,” also because we have a lot of overstayers from Georgia, we have some criminals from Georgia. AfD says “kick all those foreigners out.”

And then we also come to an issue about the AfD — our internal security service, we call them Office for the Protection of the Constitution, wrote a big report saying that the AfD can be considered a right-wing extremist organization. We’re a rule-of-law country, the AfD took the state to court and the court suspended — has said that the Office for the Protection of the Constitution has to suspend this definition until further clarification by a court. And that’s proper legal procedure, everyone can challenge such a thing. But why did the Office for the Protection of the Constitution come to this? Because in great parts of the AfD they are racist: “Germany for the Germans,” “Germany for white people,” “Germany is not for black or brown people, not for migrants, not for people who came to our country and became citizens”.

There are people in the AfD that are for “remigration” — “send them all back”. What do we call this? We call this kind of “nativist” politics. There’s an original German population — and that happens in other countries too — and for AfD, they should be calling the shots and nobody else should be around, which is completely unrealistic because German reality is already different and the German future is also different because of democracy.

So, if Georgia bets on the AfD to help you to join the EU, that’s a 100% contradiction. Really, if I was a Georgian citizen, I would ask that question to myself and to my government: “How can you tell me AfD is going to help me to get into Europe when AfD will get rid of the Europe that we know?

It will just be what their vision is, a Europe of the Nations, and so there will be no EU, then we can stop talking about EU integration.” So, that’s a question.

• With the answer in it, I think.
  You mentioned the Germany’s support for Georgia, the financial support which has been quite great for over 30 years. There are infrastructural projects were funded and so many other things. If you can tell us approximate amount that Germany has spent in support of Georgia’s development throughout this years.

For what we call ODA – Official Development Assistance, approximate just to say a round number is 2 billion Euros. That’s just Official Development Assistance. Some of it is grants, some of it is preferential loans, some of it is in-kind, training, that kind of things – in our development cooperation. We’ve done so many things together. Along with USA, we were traditionally number one partner of Georgia. When I came, the then Prime Minister said, “You’re our biggest helper in development assistance. Thank you, Germany.”

• Who was that?

Prime Minister Gharibashvili. We know what happened to him.

Big parts of the electrical grid here in Georgia were financed by German soft loans — loans that people say “Ah, it’s just a loan, we pay it back.” It’s a loan you can’t get at the bank, so it’s still much better, right? It’s a gift from the German people.

The water supply, almost the water in Batumi is from Germany. The National Parks, your system of National Parks, your forest protection program — Germany, still ongoing.

Vocational training — we have a huge investment in vocational training. Germany financed and wrote the handbook for vocational training for Georgian wine makers. Such a big deal for Georgia — German. With pleasure, in partnership, in friendship.

Private sector development — the laws around business. I meet all the time Georgian business people who say, “Oh, I went to Germany for a training as a business person.” And there’s more.

And don’t forget, we also have a Goethe Institute here for 40 years doing cultural cooperation with Georgians. Always partnership projects where both sides bring something in and create something artistic, some art, some culture.

We have an office of German Academic Exchange Service, we give hundreds of scholarships, different types, to Georgians. And just to repeat, some of your leading politicians were beneficiaries of that.

We have the political foundations here that have been helping Georgia with like workers’ rights, women’s rights, minorities’ rights, helping with legislation.

We’ve done a lot. 2 billion is just for ODA, plus the cultural, plus the scholarships — not counting private money, of course, it’s impossible to calculate because we’re not a communist country that keeps tabs on everything.

That support was all built on the premise that Georgia and Germany are moving in the same direction into what the Georgians call Euro-Atlantic integration. That’s why we did it. And now it’s going to be less because that premise is very questionable now.

• As you mentioned that it’s on the premises that Georgia  and Germany are going together to this Euro-Atlantic integration, that Georgia is going to this path. But propagandists still say, “So, what is in it for Germany? Why is it helping us? Why are they investing? What do they want in return?” – these questions are raised. What would you answer to that?

What’s our interest in Georgia? First of all, we have an old traditional relationship that goes way back. Every Georgian knows we were the first in 1918 to recognize Georgia, we were the first in 1992 to accredit an ambassador. So what’s our interest? After the historical friendship came the 1990s – Germany had great empathy and sympathy for all the countries that fell out of the Soviet Union, that were liberated from communist rule. Don’t forget, half of our country was occupied by the Soviet Union, half of our country had a communist government. So we were right at the frontier. We experienced it ourselves — in a slightly different way, East Germany was not part of the Soviet Union, but it was controlled by the Soviet Union. And we had a great sympathy for Georgia.

Maybe a symbolic moment was when our then Foreign Minister Hans-Dietrich Genscher, who was one of the architects of German unity, flew here 1992 to see his friend Eduard Shevardnadze, who was President of Georgia and who together called and Gorbachev, and Genscher and Shevardnadze, they were architects of German unity. This was a kick-off.

And then the newly independent sovereign Georgia said to us, “We want partnership from you in three things: build up a democracy — Western style, liberal, build a market economy, and Euro-Atlantic integration.” And we said all those three things we had to do ourselves after the Second World War. With all those three things we got big support from our friends in the West and we were successful in all of those.

So yes, that’s the framework for our partnership. And now, Georgia applied to the EU, not the EU to Georgia. The EU is the basis for us for our peace, freedom and prosperity.

After the attack on Ukraine, we said, let us deprioritize any concerns we have about further enlargement and let’s go with energy and with confidence and enlarge now quickly. Europe is under threat and the bigger this Union becomes — of peace, freedom, prosperity — the better for us. It’s so simple.

What’s our interest? – If our neighbour is doing well, that’s good for us. And if Georgia joined the EU — which it can, which is tangible, right? It’s still open and I believe it’s possible — then Georgia could be the anchor on the other side of the Black Sea, in the Southern Caucasus, for peace, freedom and prosperity. That would be good for us. That is our interest here.

We speak about opportunity costs — what could be, what is and what are the risks. So what could be: Georgia could be the anchor for good development of the Black Sea region and the Southern Caucasus, turning it from a fragmented space with risks, with a bad environment — sustainability — turning it into a zone of connectivity, of peace and prosperity. That’s our interest.

And for a long time our interests were aligned. And now I’m sorry to say they’re not anymore. They appear not to be. And that’s quite bad. And I have to say Germany didn’t do it, the EU didn’t do it, Georgia chose another path.

• So, as we speak about interests and what Georgia provides or what Georgia represents, we often hear arguments that Georgia is very important to the EU, that Georgia itself is so crucial — and most of the arguments are about connectivity and its strategic transit location — that it would be worth turning a blind eye to certain actions that some governments might take. So, is there a possibility that, for these reasons — connectivity and strategic transit — the EU would turn a blind eye to severe human rights abuses and the erosion of democracy in Georgia?

No. I don’t think so. The EU are 27 states and I can’t speak for the whole EU. I don’t believe they would turn a blind eye. Certainly, Germany would not. Human rights are essential. We are bound — as, by the way, is Georgia — by several international agreements that we have signed, like Georgia did: the UN Convention on Human Rights, the European Convention on Human Rights. So we have an obligation, a legal obligation to protect human rights everywhere in the world.

Germany also has an obligation that arises out of our own history. We were gross human rights violators — that’s even an understatement. And people fled Germany and tried to find a safe haven. So, the answer is no. Connectivity and transit in the Black Sea, Southern Caucasus region is important, but it’s not that important.

Germany is not going to sell its values for a few kilometres of highway and for a couple of more containers moving around.

It’s also important not to overestimate the Middle Corridor. And that brings me to the point: you know, in foreign policy we sometimes speak about value-driven foreign policy or interest-driven foreign policy. And it’s actually not a contradiction, it’s always a balance. But it’s possible to pursue our interests — and we do pursue our interests, we have contributed to Georgian infrastructure, we will continue to contribute to Georgian infrastructure. Also, we’re one of the main shareholders in the international financial institutions — and pursue our values: Defend human rights, speak out, protest, whatever.

And in the end, our interests are best served when our values are met. We think that freedom, human rights are good for human development, are good for the economy, are good for business. And we think that the opposite is not so good for business and certainly for German business. I mean, German companies don’t like to invest in authoritarian countries — or they invest less than in free countries.

• To move on another subject I want to ask about Germany as now the destination for Georgian politicians to seek asylum for. I’m speaking about Georgia’s former Prime Minister, actually from Georgian Dream party back then and now the opposition leader, Giorgi Gakharia who chose Germany for that reasons. He faces charges and quite many years in prison in Georgia. Why do you think that he chose Germany?

Oh, this I don’t know.

• Is Germany safe destination for former GD officials to go there and seek asylum? Do you think they see it as such?

So, Mr. Gakharia made a claim for asylum based on political persecution in Georgia. That’s his right under our constitution, as is the right of any person in the world and it goes back to our history: many people had to flee from Germany under Nazi rule and some had a hard time finding a safe haven.

I don’t know the details of his case. It’s under consideration. I know it hasn’t been decided.

I would not say that Germany is a safe haven for GD officials. Any individual can claim asylum, but the cases are considered by independent courts. And we’ll see what the outcome is. The court has to decide that the person is politically persecuted or persecuted for other reasons in his home country and it’s a danger to go back.

• And also there are some rumours about former head of Adjara government, Tornike Rizhvadze – who had a suicide attempt in quite suspicious circumstances – that he also, with his family resides in Germany. If you know anything about it.

I actually don’t. I don’t know anything about whether he’s in Germany or not. I wouldn’t find out because, as you know, any Georgian can enter Germany without a visa for three months. After three months, if he were in Germany — which, again, I don’t know — he would have to change his status. If it was medical treatment, yes, people come for medical treatment, they stay longer. So I really know nothing about whether he’s in Germany or not. And the embassy wouldn’t find — we wouldn’t find out, that would be with the local authority in Germany. But I really know nothing about whether he’s in Germany or not.

• We mentioned Gakharia, Rizhvadze, and even Gharibashvili was mentioned here. As from the beginning we said, this is your last mission as an ambassador appointed in a country. When you look back to your professional career and history, which is quite colourful, what can you tell us — is Georgia one of the hardest or harder countries to work in? Or let’s say is Georgia a country with the worst human rights violations, or you had even worse cases when you were posted in other countries?

Georgia wasn’t the hardest in any way. I mean, one of the things — I’ve been to many countries also well outside Europe. And Georgia is easy because it’s a European civilization. Georgians are European, so it’s really easy to get along with people and to live here. It’s been a great pleasure and lots of fun.

Now, believe it or not, I dealt with human rights issues in many countries. I was in Singapore, I dealt with human rights issues. I was in China, I dealt with human rights issues. I was in Israel, I had to deal with human rights issues. I was in United Arab Emirates, I dealt with human rights issues. And even in the USA, I dealt with human rights issues. There was a German man, he was on what the US call Death Row — he had a death sentence — in Virginia. And I remember going with my boss, the ambassador, to speak to the Governor whether he can be sent to Germany to serve the rest of his sentence – because we don’t have the death penalty, and we consider it a violation of human rights, cruel and inhuman punishment. This man spent 29 years in jail in the USA and then he was released on parole and deported to Germany. So even in the USA I dealt with human rights issues.

Now there’s two main differences to Georgia. First, those were individual cases. And none of the countries that I was in went from a good situation to a bad situation — so where the development was bad, so-called backsliding. China’s not a democracy, UAE’s not a democracy, Singapore has its system of government — that was never a question, we don’t challenge countries’ self-governance, we challenge human rights violations…

But here in Georgia, it’s — when I came, as I said in the beginning of the interview, everything was going forward, positive, and then it started going bad. That’s the first difference.

Second difference: none of those countries were an EU candidate. Georgia is an EU candidate. Georgia applied. And as an EU candidate, for me as a member state ambassador, it is not only my right, it is my duty to address issues where you no longer conform with the European Union – And some of the human rights violations that happen here, are not. So it is my duty and my task to mention and criticize violation of human rights and democratic backsliding. And if you don’t accept that, you haven’t understood what the EU is about or you’re not serious about the EU.

And by the way, we also accept in Germany if we get criticized for individual human rights violations.

• Well, now when we speak about the developments in Georgia, and experts also actually often say, that there is so much also depended on global politics, on the neighbourhood politics, whatever is happening, how for example Russia’s invasion in Ukraine had played its role and so on. And the world is not exactly the nicest place right now — lots of is changing. Based on your experience which is quite impressive, what do you think is the future of Georgia in next five years in this very much chaotic and changing world?

Well, first of all, that’s for the Georgians to decide, right?! I have my opinion and I will tell you, but the main point: Georgian citizens should decide their own future.

Now, the world is in turmoil and Georgia is a small country. Personally I see three sort of general options for Georgia. One is to join the EU. I would call it a golden future. Look at all the other member states that joined—they all had a very positive development. And they feel safer and more protected in a world where Great Power politics is attempting a comeback, where some powers seem to think that the Rule of Force, the Rule of Power is preferable to the Rule of Law, where you can settle conflicts with the military rather than with peaceful means and negotiations.

We always say, all European countries are small. That’s part of the reason we have the EU — that as a unit, we are better able to protect ourselves and to defend our interests. So, number one: join the EU, golden future.

Second: You can stay a small country in the Southern Caucasus. Some people say “we’ll be a second Dubai, we’ll be a second Switzerland” — that’s quite hard to achieve, but why not if that’s the choice of the Georgian people? Okay. But you would probably be a country without any market integration, so you stay a small country, a small market — which is relevant for economics and business — and a country without a political alignment, which is relevant for security and sort of a feeling of safety.

Third option is you’re a small country in the Southern Caucasus, no market integration, no alignment, and you stay below — from a German perspective — our standards for human rights and democracy. If the Georgian people decide that’s what they want or that’s the way it turns out, can also be — we will still have relations but they will be very reduced. Georgia will not be so interesting under those circumstances.

Now, the international situation: Germany rejects this trend towards “Rule of Force against Rule of Law”. We don’t want to live in a world where people settle their conflicts with the military. We don’t want to live in a world where people change borders by force. It came into vogue, seems to be coming into vogue with some people, but it’s also showing its limits right now. One of the limits that is very clear to us as German government is that Russia is losing. Russia is not winning. Russia is losing in Ukraine, Russia is losing in the economic sphere, Russia is losing the ideological competition and so are some others — these limits are being shown.

Personally, I’m so happy that I’m a citizen of the European Union. I have great confidence in the future of the EU. I wouldn’t trade my EU citizenship for anything else. I don’t need to go to California or South Africa or, you know, what people talk about — Australia… I will stay in the EU. We are really a lesson from history — that this Rule of Power, nationalism, militarism, solving things with military means is a bad solution. That’s our lesson from history in the EU. We built the EU — yes, it’s complicated, it’s slow, it’s sometimes cumbersome — people say “Ah, I wish we could, you know, just decide for ourselves, we always have to speak with everyone in the EU and discuss and discuss” — but it’s the best solution we’ve found to the issues.

We are a big unit, we are 450 million people, we are giant market, we have all the cultural diversity, we have freedom, we have prosperity. Sure, there’s challenges, but I think looking at the world, I’m confident that the EU is best placed to meet the challenges. Our model is attractive.

• Again, to go back to Georgia. You said when you came here things were quite well, the development went nice, we got the candidate status and then it started dropping – the situation started becoming worse and worse. Do you see Georgia overcoming it in nearest future?Or if it’s going to continue down or it’s going to freeze here? What is your prognosis when you look at the country that you spent your recent years in.

I think the future of Georgia is open. I don’t think the course has been finally determined. I don’t think the course against the EU is fixed. Why? Because in my impression, Georgians want to be part of Europe. Georgians dream about a European future. Some know exactly what it means to join the EU and what it entails, others just say, “You know, I’m Georgian, therefore I’m European.”

And so many Georgians tell me, “What’s the alternative for us? We’re not Russians, we’re not Turks, we’re not Iranians or Azeris. We can be friends with Armenia, but is that enough? is that a shoulder we can put our head on?” Perhaps, not sufficiently. There’s the old saying — that some people say goes back to Abraham Lincoln, the former US President — “you can fool some of the people some of the time but not all of the people all of the time”. That’s the short version of the statement. So, if the population really wants Europe, in the end through many challenges, I believe they will get Europe. And our offer is there for you. The candidate status remains. I think the future is open. It’s challenging but it’s open.

• Well, sounds very hopeful. And to finalize our interview, tell us about your future plans and whether there will be a place for Georgia in your plans? 

I’m about to retire — it’s not a secret, I’m 66 years old. It’s a federal law that people born in my year have to retire this year. And so I’m looking forward to it. I’ve been a diplomat for more than 40 years now and I enjoyed it very much, but after 40 years it’s enough, right? Why should I continue for 50 or forever?

I’m going back to Berlin, which is my hometown. I’ve been there since the age of five, I went to school there, I went to university there. We have a very beautiful Belle Époque apartment — it’s under conservation protection, you know, we live in a monument — in a wonderful neighbourhood. I have many friends there. I’m going back to the European Union, which I love — all the European countries are close to me.

Georgia has been my seventh foreign posting. I mentioned some of the countries. I have family in the USA, I have family in Latin America. And I’ve stayed connected to people in all seven countries and I met very wonderful people in Georgia. I will take many good friends from Georgia — I won’t physically take them, I will keep them in my heart and they will stay.

And I have a great admiration also for the many Georgian people that are showing great courage and dignity in the face of adversity now, in the face of intimidation. So, Georgia will stay close to my heart.

Someone recently said they ‘can’t wait for me to leave and for this episode to be finished’. For me, Georgia was not just an episode. I care about the European future of Georgia. I think it will come, it’s there for you to take. There’s some work that needs to be done but it’s graspable. I don’t want Georgia to miss the opportunity. I don’t want the EU to miss the opportunity with Georgia. I don’t want the Georgian people to be betrayed out of this opportunity—for someone to fool them and say, “You know, we’re taking you into the EU” when actually they’re not. That’s why I’ll be watching Georgia from my retirement, my comfortable retirement – from my easy chair. And I do look forward to coming back and meeting Georgian friends in Berlin and elsewhere.

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Journalist: Irma Dimitradze